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                                           | CRSS CENTER ORAL HISTORY PROJECT INTERVIEW WITH JOHN T. JONES, JR..
 
 
 Kevin Noon interviewed John Jones at his home in Hempstead on December 10, 1991.  It was transcribed by Barbara Anderson.
 
 
 KFN:   This is real informal. . .what we are trying to get at is. . .if you  could start with the beginning of how you got involved with CRS.
 
 JTJ:   Okay.   I think probably the best thing for me to do  first is  identify myself.  I am John T. Jones, Jr.  My relationship with CRS was  as a corporate director.  I have no training, no experience of any kind  in the field of architecture or engineering.  I was selected as a  director, I think, because of my general business background, because I  knew some of the active senior members of CRS, because I had employed  CRS earlier for a major job. . .and we both spoke to each other after it  was over.  I wasn't very  loud but I was a member of that Board from  sometime in the early 70's to about the mid-eighties.  The exact dates,  I'm sure, are in the company records.   There would be no problem about  that.  I resigned from the CRS Board at the same time directorship in  the Fishbach Corp. of New York put me in danger of a conflict of  interest with one or the other.  This was at a time when both CRS and  Fishbach Corp. were very interested in going into the general  contracting business.  Prior to that time, Fishbach had been a general  electrical and plumbing contractor, national and international in scope.
 
 KFN:  And your relationship with Fishbach was. . . ?
 
 JTJ:   As a Director.   My  relationship with Fishbach was about ten years  longer than with CRS.  So when I had to give up one, I gave up the one  with whom I had the shortest relationship.  Without reference to  personalities or anything like that, because at the time, I had a great  many very good friends in both organizations, but sooner or later I  would have been in conflict and I wanted to avoid that before it came to  a head.
 
 My business background is primarily in communications.    From 1950 to 1965, I was President of the Houston Chronicle Publishing  Co.; President of the Houston Consolidated  Television Co. from its  inception in 1954 to its sale to Capital Cities Broadcasting  Corp. in  1967.  That is a Texas Corporation, which owns Ch.13 in Houston; and was  and still am Chairman of the Board of the Rusk Corp., a radio  broadcasting company, which has KTRH-AM and K101-FM in Houston, an FM  stations in San Antonio, Austin, and the Permian Basin, generally  in  Midland.
 
 Now, CRS. . .what would you like to know?
 
 KFN:  First of all.  The initial project that got you involved.
 
 JTJ:   The initial project that got me involved with CRS was the construction  of Jesse.H. Jones  Hall for the Performing Arts, which in this year,  1991, celebrated its 25th anniversary.   At the time I was Chairman of  Houston Endowment Inc., which financed the construction of the Hall as a  gift to the City of Houston from Houston Endowment.  Houston Endowment,  incidentally, was the foundation formed by Jesse H. and  Mary Gibbs  Jones in 1938, principally funded at Jesse Jones' death in 1956.  When  we decided to do this, I had talked to several architectural firms but  not very many.  At the time, through the Jones interests, which had been  commercial builders in Houston for a long time,  I was in touch with a  great many architectural firms.  I was particularly impressed with  background of CRS, Caudill Rowlett Scott.  They had done a great many  major school or college projects and other public type projects.  I was  rather naive about architecture then, but I thought if they could design  a college campus, they surely ought to know how to handle people.  I  was also impressed with the representatives from CRS who called on me.    The ones who called on me were Wallie Scott, Tom Bullock and Willie  Peña.   The selection process was really not scientific at all.  We were  just impressed with these people, and they left me brochures and that  kind of stuff, which were pretty.  Every good architectural firm has  brochures and they are certainly  not going to showcase their bad jobs.   I asked them what they thought about it.
 
 KFN:   So that was your  impression of them, essentially, and how they performed when you  interviewed them.   How many other firms do you think you might have  talked to?
 
 JTJ:  I don't know. . .two or three.  Besides that, they sure wanted the job.
 
 KFN:  Oh, I'll bet.
 
 JTJ:   They sure wanted the job.  It was a good job for them because it was a  chance for them to showcase themselves in Houston.  They had only  recently come into Houston.  Before then, they were headquartered around  College Station, doing work nationally. . .scattered around.  When they  moved into Houston, they really needed a real good job there.  I  thought because of that they might work just a little bit harder to make  it a good job, a real showcase job.  All the principals of the company I  talked to were intrigued with the idea of this gift to the people of  Houston on the same site as the old City Auditorium.  The old City  Auditorium, I'm sure, was a great building in its day but its day was  long gone.  That's basically the reason I picked them.
 
 KFN:  How did things evolve after that?
 
 JTJ:   Naturally, during the construction of Jones Hall,  I was with them  quite often.  They were easy to get along with.  They were the  designers, supervisor of construction.  I had never dealt with them  before.  I trusted them completely. . .but another architect was Clerk  of the Works.  He was there. . .
 
 KFN:  To give a second opinion and keep an eye on things.
 
 JTJ:   To see that it was being built as drawn and if not, that it was  explained why. . .and to watch the architects and watch the contractor.   He was our only direct employee; he worked for the owner.  He has since  then become quite a successful architect on his own.  That is probably  the basis and background.  I got to know Tom Bullock very well and Herb  Paseur.  We used to have regular meetings of the Building Committee, and  I was chairman.  That didn't mean I knew a damn thing about building  but it meant I was at all the meetings.  We always had two or three  people from Houston Endowment and most of the principals of CRS. .  .always Bullock, Paseur. . . .
 
 KFN:  Was Bill Caudill ever involved?
 
 JTJ:   Bill Caudill was there from time to time.  When he was there, he was  very active, constantly offering suggestions, and just as frequently,  offered questions.  I was very  impressed with the man.  He had a mind  that was . . .unfettered, let's say that.  He liked to question and  experiment, but never dangerous in his experimentation.  Anyway I got to  know the principals quite well.  Jim Gatton was the Project Architect  and I got to know him best of all.   Jim, I will say, turned in a good   job.  No job is perfect.  There are always glitches that show up now and  then.  But Jim did a good  job on smoothing them out.  If he couldn't  smooth them out, he worked them out.  Now what else do you want to know?
 
 KFN:   I have a communication background myself, a degree, no work in the  field at all.  I'm interested in that topic and we're going to hit that  topic pretty hard.  Given all the possible definitions of communication,  feel free to hit on any of those.  What kind of communication structure  did you see in the company when you tried to deal with them in the  early years?  Did you see any problems there, any advantages, examples  of how they communicated  with each other?
 
 JTJ:  Not  particularly.  I was pleased. . .I won't say surprised. . .with the  internal communications of the organization.  I expected that because  the principals I met were, to say the least, were garrulous.  They were  intent on everyone's knowing. . .Bullock, in particular, had this  business of everybody working together.  I don't know whether Tom  Bullock can draw a straight line or not, but he's a hell of a mover.  I  got to know him and like him a great deal and my opinion hasn't changed  at all.
 
 KFN:  He had some great things to say before I came down here.  I could tell he wanted to do this interview but he can't.
 
 JTJ:   He'd have done a good job but he'd have done most of the talking.   Anyway, I was pleased with the internal communication and I expected  that.  Certainly  Bill Caudill. . .he was the Daddy Rabbit of the  organization, the thing everybody coalesced around. . .was the  fountainhead of a constant "stream of consciousness" memos, going at it  all the time.   Must have been a full time job for one person to keep  him supplied with those damn little cards he used to send them out on.
 
 KFN:  Yeah, he was a thinker.
 
 JTJ:   Yes he was. . .thought all the time.  He used to fly an old float  plane. . .looked like a float plane, a cumbersome old  thing.  He'd fly  it from College Station to Houston and come by this place, our ranch  here in Hempstead, Texas; and there is old Oxbow Lake down there.  He  would fly over that thing and wiggle his wings and I knew next I was  going to get one of those little cards with what he was thinking about  when he flew over.
 
 KFN:  That's wonderful!
 
 JTJ:  What's next?
 
 KFN:   Okay, you marked off "Mergers and Acquisitions."  You were involved  with some of those as they came along, possibly Sirrine and others.
 
 JTJ:   Yeah, well.  That was a long time after I got on the Board.  I was  interested in the Sirrine merger.  I thought it was very much to the  benefit of the company.  When I first got on the Board, whatever that  elusive date is. . .I can't think of it right now. . .CRS was just  starting to grow out of being a pure architectural design company.  They  were going into Construction Management in a pretty big way, and they  put in a pretty sophisticated. . .computerized, that's what  sophisticated means these days, I guess. . .computerized construction  management system.  And they were doing very well.  It was quite good  and by that I mean they were getting work.
 
 KFN:  So you think it was the right thing to do, switch over and start. . . . .
 
 JTJ:   As you know from talking with others, at this time they were doing  quite a bit of overseas work.  When I joined the board,  they were in  the process of one big deal and going into another one, the HOK+4  consortium in the Saudi Kingdom.  They were pretty well wrapped up with  that.  Incidentally, that went well and wound up that the companies' top  echelon were more concerned with how to get the money out of Europe and  back to the U.S. than they were with any glitches in their actual  process in Saudi Arabia.
 
 KFN:  I see, how to get the receivables back to the country.
 
 JTJ:   I was kind of familiar with that because the Fishbach board. . .this  other company I was with, an international electrical contractor, had  just done a tremendous electrification job for the new nation of Zaire,  and they were in the midst of electrifying. . .I don't know the name of  the river. . .there's one great huge river that runs almost the full  length of Afghanistan. . .and they were electrifying a lot of  Afghanistan, hydroelectric dams, hydroelectric (?) and they had the same  problem of how to get their money out.  Seems all these countries want  you to come in and do the work but make it difficult to get it out and  the U.S. makes it difficult to get it in.
 
 KFN:  So that was the big problem. . .
 
 JTJ:   Not a big problem but was a problem, one that occupied some board  time.  Bought an awful lot of airplane tickets to Africa. . .
 
 KFN:  Were you involved with the Sirrine acquisition?
 
 JTJ:  No, not directly, just as a board member
 
 KFN:  How did you feel about that?
 
 JTJ:   I was for it.  I thought a long time about it but I was for it.   Architecture hadn't gone into a slump or anything like that, but  architecture was a little flat.  Sirrine was pure engineering company  and had a real specialty. . .they were the leading paper-making  engineers in the U. S.   Having been closely associated with the  newspaper industry for a number of years, I knew that was an industry  that had not topped out.  Canadian paper was becoming more and more  expensive.  European paper was certainly more expensive and very  limited. . .all the companies were in Sweden and Finland.  At that time  we could not get any importation from Russia.  I don't know whether  there is any now or not.  Russia's got the greatest potential in the  world.  The Canadians have got the raw material but the Canadian plants  were all old, old, old.  The new plants were all in the southern pine  belt.  Southern pine is a very rapidly renewing resource.  You can grow  pulp logs in 14-15 years.  It takes 20-30 years to grow a tree the same  size in Canada because the growing season is so short.  Takes even  longer than that in Finland.  They've got to get their growth in 2-1/2  to 3 months.  I was very much for the Sirrine and did everything I could  to foster it .
 
 KFN:  On the downside, what were some of the opposition comments?  Do you remember any?
 
 JTJ:   There was lots of questioning.  There was only one real "con."  Chuck  was very reluctant to go into it.  He had been for it for a long time. .  .first he was indecisive and then was actually against it.  That's the  reason he left the company.  He thought it was the wrong move, they were  going too fast into uncharted areas.  He was kind of a. . .I won't say  cautious. . .but in this case, was careful to a fault.  I think the good  points were obvious.  He didn't see it that way and wanted to keep the  status quo a little longer.  He was a little more apprehensive about  going into uncharted waters. . .
 
 KFN:  What other mergers and types of things did you look at.  Do you remember?
 
 JTJ:   There were lots of flirtations.  One that went through was the Geren  firm in Fort Worth.  That was a relatively small firm, very, very strong  in its market.  That went through and I have no idea what came out of  it.
 
 KFN:  What was their specialty?
 
 JTJ:  They were  general architects in Fort Worth, did a little of everything.  I'm sure  they'd have been delighted to build you a church, office building,  factory, whatever.  It was a fair-size firm. . .my memory is bad.  You  can check with Bullock, although I know his memory isn't a damn bit  better than mine, but he might add to it.  I think they had close to 40  associates, but owned by an individual. . .at least that's my  recollection.  What else do you want to know about CRS?
 
 They had great board meetings, I'll tell you.  You ate, you drank. . .anything you wanted.  Extremely eclectic board, too.
 
 KFN:  Yeah, I noticed there were some really interesting people on the board.
 
 JTJ:  Characters, characters.
 
 KFN:  Now did that help to broaden perspectives on where the company should go?  Did that cause problems?
 
 JTJ:   I don't think it caused any problems.  This board was . . . .I don't  remember any real arguments. . .lots of discussions, very open and free.   It was a very good board in that respect.  The character I referred to  principally, I guess, was John Naisbitt, the author of Megatrends and  all that stuff.  He had a bunch of correspondents who clipped newspapers  and sent them to him.  From this wealth of clippings, etc. he would  project things.  I guess it turned out all right. . .I don't know  whether he was an economist or just a good collator.  He turned out to  be a hell of an author, probably made a lot of money out of it.
 
 KFN:  Do you think he sparked a lot of visionary ideas being there?
 
 JTJ:   He sparked more discussions than interest.  He may have headed off a  few things.  He pointed areas where you could concentrate (?).  He was  pretty firm in his projection that the future states,  as far as  economic growth  was concerned, were California and Florida.  Then the   other sunbelt states with Texas in thelead as a sort of secondary role.   That's my recollection. . .he kind of ruled out a lot of  the rust belt  states.  He hasn't been completely accurate in that because some have  done fairly well.
 
 KFN:  Basically, then, he stirred up a lot of conversation.
 
 JTJ:   Oh yeah.  We had a board member who was a particular friend of mine,  named Aaron Farfel.  Who resigned before I got off the board.  Aaron  was, I guess you would call him, a general businessman and extremely  successful. . .very quiet, softspoken and sharp as a tack.  When he  spoke, he never raised his voice but everybody stopped and listened.  He  didn't interject many comments, but when he thought he saw something,  he would bring it up.
 
 KFN:  What was that name again?
 
 JTJ:  Aaron Farfel.  He was. .. .
 
 KFN:  Was he on the board for a long time?
 
 JTJ:   He was on it for several years.  He was particularly good with  finances.  He was also one of my board members on the old Ch. 13 board.
 
 KFN:  Based  on your work in the communication industry, coming  into an advisory capacity for an architectural firm, did you think  these folks were  a little out in left field. . .were they progressive. .  .aggressive. . .moderately so. . .visionary?
 
 JTJ:  They were  everything you said.  They were kind of wide-ranging.  They also. . .at  least a number of them. . .had their eye on the bottom line too. . .knew  what the company was there to do.  It was there to be a great  architectural firm but they didn't have a Medici family back of them to  support them, so they knew they had to make money.  They were good at  that.
 
 KFN:  Do you remember any of the other folks who served on the board with you?
 
 JTJ:  Sure.  At first, there were Bill Caudill
  , Wallie Scott. . . 
 Side 2
 
 JTJ:  We always had the financial side of the company  represented.  The outside directors, Naisbitt, myself, Farfel.
 
 KFN:  What did you say Farfel's contribution was, mostly?
 
 JTJ:  Financial.  He was an excellent financial man.
 
 KFN:  Do you remember where he came from?
 
 JTJ:   I know exactly.  He was an accountant and lawyer by training; came to  Houston following WWII as an IRS officer.  He spent five-six years as an  IRS officer auditing some of the major organizations in Houston,  including our own.  Then he opened A.J.Farfel & Co., a CPA firm.    He did that for, I guess, 15-20 years and then gave that firm to his  employees.  It was a successful firm and is now Peat Marwick Mitchell in  Houston.  He was President of Pyramid Rubber Co. , which during WWII  made an absolute mint of money because they had stockpiled most of the  natural rubber available for baby bottle nipples.  That's the only thing  the federal government released natural rubber for and they owned the  company.  He was Board Chairman of Spaulding
  Sporting Goods  Co., a big  company.  Their principal product was golf balls. . .which are, here  again, wrapped  in rubber.  He was in a lot of things. . .real estate. .  .a real entrepreneur.  If it had possibilities, he would take it on,  quite a venture capitalist.  He gave me long lectures on the investment  of money and gold. . .he said it was the worst investment of all.  He  said its dead, inert. . .money invested in gold does nothing.  Money  should be invested in production, something that's created. 
 KFN:  Well, he proved that.
 
 JTJ:  Oh yeah, he proved that.  He wasn't wrong very often.
 
 KFN:  How did you guys get along as a team on the board?
 
 JTJ:   Pretty good.  I think everything was pretty copasetic most of the  time.  There were disagreements, sure.  There are bound to be lots of  disagreements  in any company.  Those were either settled, worked out or  laid to rest before they ever got to board level.  We didn't have to  worry around with much of that.  When Chuck left the company, that did  get to the board level who accepted his resignation.
 
 KFN:  If  you could start over again, back when you first joined the board in the  early years.  What would you have done differently  from what they had  going?  Brought on different people, tried different strategies,  different economic directions. . ./
 
 JTJ:  No, I think they did  pretty well like they did.  On the board, I didn't talk very much,  unless I thought something was going the wrong way.  (This part  unintelligible. . .the parrot drowns out Mr. Jones).  But I didn't do  that very much.  I don't know that I'd have done anything very  differently.  I think CRS. . .although with many name changes. . .has  been quite successful and done a damn good job. . .they've left very  happy tracks behind them all through Texas.
 
 KFN:  That's the point of our effort here, to find out why that happened.
 
 JTJ:   I think this, in very large measure, is the pattern set by old Bill  Caudill.  He was kind oaf bear of a guy, but a great fellow.
 
 KFN:  And of course, Tom, keeping up with the production end of it.
 
 JTJ:  Oh yes.  Tom had a little hand on the sales effort, too.  Quite a bit. . .he was damn good at it.
 
 KFN:  I'm sure he'll be glad to hear that.  Did you follow the company at all when you left in the mid-eighties or so?
 
 JTJ:   It was 84-85, something like that.  Yes, I kept up with it.  Certainly  I kept up with Tom, Herb Paseur. . .I see quite a few of them.
 
 KFN:   Let me go back and ask you one other thing.  Did you get involved with  any of the management of the company at all, anything internally,  management-wise, how they were running things?
 
 JTJ:  Not  particularly.  Tom might have been worried about something and talked to  me.   He likes to have somebody to bounce things off of.  So I got  involved in very small ways.  But to be available to have things bounced  off you is pretty good service sometimes.
 
 KFN:  Oh yeah,  especially with your background in your other interests.  At the same  time you were serving on the CRS Board, what other positions did you  hold?
 
 JTJ:  At one time or another during that period of service,  I was involved with television.  I was no longer involved with the  Houston Chronicle.  I resigned from the Chronicle because I had bought  its  radio station and didn't want to be in conflict with that.  I was a  director of what's now Texas Commerce Bank.  It was then the National  Bank of Commerce;  I was director of the Houston local Chemical Bank,  Chemical Bank
  & Trust, which was later absorbed by National Bank of  Commerce.  I was a director, just retired a couple of years ago, of  American General [later AIG] for thirty years, and a director of Fishbach Corp.   Fishbach Corp. is a New York contracting  company.  With a conflict of  interest, I left the CRS Board. [The corporation's name is misspelled throughout this oral transcript. Correct spelling was "Fischbach".] 
 KFN:  So with the banking,  communication and Fishbach, can you make any comparisons as to how they  conducted business in those other industries vs. this one.  Is there  anything you . . . .
 
 JTJ:  The difference between the boards?
 
 KFN:  The boards, exactly.
 
 JTJ:  There was a lot difference.
 
 KFN:  Okay.  Can you describe some of the more unique things that set them apart?
 
 JTJ:   The Fishbach Corp. was essentially a family company, founded by Harry  Fishbach and Bob Moore, two men.  Moore sold out a few years after the  war.  Harry Fishbach and his sons stayed on and they pretty much  dominated  the company, a New York organization.  The people  on the  board had all been there a long time and it was a very close board.  The  ones who lived in New York, especially, used to see each other  socially. . .very willful, argumentative.   It was necessary to have a  lawyer on that board and they did.
 
 
~~~~~~~~~ Result of the trial convicting the defendants was appealed and opinion announced in 1984 at 750 F.2d 1183 in The United States v. Fischbach and Moore, Inc.|  |  | Fischbach & Moore, Inc. of Dallas (F&M) was sued for rigging contract bids on nuclear power plants |  
 For approximately seven years, from 1974 to 1981, representatives of  several electrical contracting companies met at the Duquesne Club in  Pittsburgh.  The purpose of these meetings was to allocate electrical  construction projects, by bid rigging, at the Western Pennsylvania Works  (Works) of United States Steel (USS).  Whenever one of the companies  desired to rig a bid, that company's representative would telephone the  other contractors and arrange a meeting.  After deciding among  themselves which firm would receive the contract, that firm's  representative would contact the other contractors and would tell them  what bid to submit, ensuring that his firm's bid would be the lowest.   Some of the firms kept track of the allocations to ensure that each  contracting company received its fair share of work.... F & M brazenly committed a grave crime.  The jury found the company  guilty of conspiring to commit per se violations of the Sherman Act in a  series of meetings that obviously were illegal.  Moreover, F & M  was one of the ringleaders of that conspiracy.  As to the sentences  imposed in the same jurisdiction, the penalties levied on the other  defendants in this case provide a good example.  Every individual  defendant received a fine and a prison sentence;  all the corporate  defendants received one million dollar fines.    
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ APRIL 25,1990 from AP-- 
 "We believe that this prosecution and the fact that Mr. Milken has admitted to guilt will send the right message to the financial community," Assistant U.S. Attorney John K. Carroll told the court. Mr. Carroll said that after sentencing is completed, the public "should conclude that justice has been done."  Milken was composed as he described the work of Drexel's Beverly Hills, Calif.-based junk bond department and his unlawful actions. He broke down in discussing his personal struggle during the four-year investigation. In addition to conspiracy, Milken admitted to violations including:    
 —Violating federal disclosure requirements by failing to record a deal compensating Boesky for trading losses in Fischbach Corp. in 1984. Boesky had acquired more than 10 percent of the takeover target on Milken's recommendation and Milken promised to to cover any trading losses. —Securities fraud involving the sale of MCA Inc. stock by Drexel client Golden Nugget Inc. in the fallof 1384. Milken said he arranged illegal trades to cover losses by Boesky, who agreed to buy blocks of MCA stock to mask sales of large positions and create the appearance of market demand. Milken said his plea was an admission of personal responsibility "and not a reflection of the underlying soundness and integrity of the capital markets in which we specialized.""Our business was in no way dependent on these practices," he said. "Nor did they comprise a fundamental part of our business and I regret them very much."
 Junk bonds grew from an obscure form of debt to a $200 billion market almost entirely because of Milken, who controlled a wide network of buyers and sellers and wielded enormous power.
 The market virtually dried up last fall because of problems involving several large defaults and Milken's departure from the scene.
  ~~~~~~~~~~~KFN:  As a moderator. 
 JTJ:   But they all liked each other very much but were mostly individuals,  men who had been CEO's of various contracting organizations, which had  been taken over by Fishbach [sic].  They were all successful, all had very  strong opinions.  Sometimes it seemed to me that the one who could  holler the loudest was the one who. . . .  It wasn't quite that bad but  it was a very open board.  American General was more like a bank board.   You had a very set agenda, stuck to it.  As you come  to everything on  the agenda, the Chairman is more like a school teacher.  He  recites  everything, explains the items, including all ramifications, and there  is not as much feedback from the various board members because,  everything is talked about and the only feedback you get is if somebody  really does object.  In those days, banking was a pretty well regulated  industry, so there was not as much reason for much feedback, as long as  you stayed within the law.  American General [founded by Gus Wortham] was very much the same,  possibly a little more discretion than the bank but not much.  The one  time when you had a whole lot of board feedback was if the bank  ("hook  'em horns". . .you know where I went to school) was going through a  change of direction or policy, something like that. . .if they were  planning on a merger, a purchase, a major acquisition.  That's when  things really got out,  but the routine, day-to-day things were not  discussed, as say, they were on the CRS Board.  They were on the  Fishbach [sic] board.
 
 KFN:  They were discussed on the Fishbach [sic] board?
 
 JTJ:  Everything was.
 
 KFN:  Everything was?
 
 JTJ:  Just about.  If it wasn't discussed, they'd bring it up and ask. . . ."where do you buy your pencils?"
 
 KFN:  Is that right?  And CRS had a kind of mix of that, some details but not much.  And in the banking and insurance. . . .
 
 JTJ:  Much more structured.
 
 KFN:  They didn't bring out the details as much. . .they were pretty  much set anyway.
 
 JTJ:   Toward the end of my tenure on the CRS board, it was becoming more  structured because it was getting so damn much bigger.  So many  different things to discuss, there had to be more structure to the  board.
 
 KFN:  Was the attention to detail in Fishbach beneficial  to them?  Could they have done better without so much attention to  detail?
 
 JTJ:  I don't think it would have made much difference,  either way.  The strength of Fishbach is that they had a core of  employee built up over 25-30-40 years, who were extremely loyal. .  .never underestimate people like that. . .god, they're important in the  contracting industry. . .their various branch supervisors, people like  that.  You could have wiped out the Board of Directors and they wouldn't  have known it for a year.  The company would have just gone on.  Sooner  or later, they would have needed a board but actually the main things  we discussed were major trends we saw coming up, things like that.   There was a lot of petty discussion.  We didn't actually quarrel of  where they bought pencils, but it was. . . .
 
 KFN:  A level of detail there.
 
 JTJ:   And in the contracting business, you have a tremendous loophole for  theft in purchasing, and  the internal audit report was always a big  part of the meeting.  Outside auditors don't audit  anything like that,  so we had fairly substantial internal auditing system because there were   literally buying millions of dollars worth of supplies every week or  so.  This is the biggest electrical contracting firm in the U.S. and  about third in the world.  A lot of that stuff can fall thru the cracks,  one of the big problems. . .like the restaurant business.  If you close  the back door, you make money; if the back door's open, you don't.   Something else I've been in too.
 
 KFN:  Really?  Holy cow.  You've  certainly seen a lot of action.   Then the CRS Board had a sort of  happy balance between detail, vision and planning.
 
 JTJ:  I think so.  It was a very happy and, I think, an effective board.
 
 KFN:  Did they socialize with each other as much as the other boards?
 
 JTJ:  Once or twice a year we would have a get-together.
 
 KFN:  Okay, but not real tight. . .no outside relationships or anything.
 
 JTJ:  A couple times a year there would be a get-together when wives would be invited.
 
 KFN:  Would it have helped if you had been a little closer with these board members on the outside, socially.
 
 JTJ:  No.
 
 KFN:  You don't think so. . .wouldn't have had any effect?  Okay.  Some folks mentioned that as being a.. . . .
 
 JTJ:   I think it was all right like it was..  If you wanted to see each  other outside, you could.  There were some business-related functions  when they would invite the directors, sometimes all of them, sometimes  just the ones in Houston they could get together in a hurry.  They would  get together, maybe for some potential major client who was in town. .  .buy him a drink, give him a nice little snow-job.
 
 KFN:  Did you notice during your tenure an evolution of the board to a broader perspective. . .from design to. . . .?
 
 JTJ:  A little bit.   We took in more outside members, and that broadens it some.
 
 KFN:  Were you really the first outside board member?
 
 JTJ:   No.  John Naisbitt and Aaron Farfel were both there when I got there.   I don't know which of them was the first outside member.  I kind of  think it was Aaron but am not sure.
 
 KFN:  Was this before Naisbitt wrote Megatrends?
 
 JTJ:   It was before. . .he wrote Megatrends while he was on the Board and  after I got on it.  He sent me an autographed copy and didn't even ask  me for any  money.
 
 KFN:  That was an incredible book and he  struck a cord with folks all around the country.  Don't know if it's  true or not but it created a lot of interest and is still selling right  now.  You've been going for an hour now.  This is a long interview.
 
 JTJ:  It's long enough as far as I'm concerned.  I've told you everything I know.
 
 
 End of taping session
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